In the extended text, Chuck and I blogged the debate. Unedited, at the moment. I haven’t decided yet whether I’ll format it further. I need to think a bit about my response. But you can get our minute-by-minute thoughts here for now.
Dr Momentum (8:57:26 PM): Here we go
Dr Momentum (8:57:39 PM): They’ve just been introduced. Dr Momentum (8:57:52 PM): A little early, no?
Plastered Dragon (8:58:05 PM): ok
Plastered Dragon (8:58:11 PM): I’m on CSPAN2 Plastered Dragon (8:58:14 PM): no audio yet
Dr Momentum (8:58:18 PM): Oh, I see. They’re just getting in place.
Dr Momentum (8:58:23 PM): Weird. OK. Plastered Dragon (8:58:59 PM): Oh there IS audio… just dead silence.
Dr Momentum (8:59:22 PM): Maggie says “Cheney’s almost life-like.”
Plastered Dragon (8:59:26 PM): Dick looks like he is going to bite off someone’s head. Dr Momentum (9:00:25 PM): I wonder how much of this week’s news will figure in.
Plastered Dragon (9:00:37 PM): I think it is mostly going to be about Iraq.
Plastered Dragon (9:00:53 PM): I’m sure Edwards will mention Bremer’s complaint today. Dr Momentum (9:00:56 PM): Yes, probably.
Dr Momentum (9:01:03 PM): I should think so.
Dr Momentum (9:02:20 PM): Cheney does actually look more human than usual. Edwards looks relaxed. Plastered Dragon (9:02:52 PM): split screen… that allowed this time?
Dr Momentum (9:03:11 PM): I don’t think the candidates have any say in the coverage, just the debate format.
Dr Momentum (9:03:32 PM): Right in with the Bremer question. Plastered Dragon (9:03:36 PM): Yep
Dr Momentum (9:05:13 PM): CHeney has been asked specifically about Bremer, and he’s going to avoid the question by speaking in generalities. He wants to paint the big picture so he can tell
his whole story. Will he ever get to the question, though?
Plastered Dragon (9:05:19 PM): No Plastered Dragon (9:05:30 PM): Here comes the fear factor
Dr Momentum (9:05:42 PM): I wonder if his aim is going to be to get people to change the channel.
Dr Momentum (9:05:59 PM): Put the fear up front, get his comment in, and then bore people into changing the channel. Plastered Dragon (9:06:32 PM): John Edwards … right in there with … YOU ARE NOT BEING STRAIGHT W/AMERICAN PEOPLE… he’s not pulling punches.
Dr Momentum (9:06:42 PM): No, he’s come out swinging.
Dr Momentum (9:07:04 PM): He’s refocusing on the Bremer question. Plastered Dragon (9:07:27 PM): Cheney appears to be struggling to contain his anger.
Dr Momentum (9:07:58 PM): I think you’re right. He does seem angry!
Plastered Dragon (9:08:16 PM): If he get’s mad, he blows this debate. Plastered Dragon (9:08:20 PM): And edwards knows it
Plastered Dragon (9:08:26 PM): That’s why he is pushing his buttons
Dr Momentum (9:08:38 PM): Edwards is smart to focus on Cheney’s refusal to leave the Iraq/al Quaeda connection behind. Dr Momentum (9:09:00 PM): Now Edwards has to handle Kerry’s criticism of the war.
Dr Momentum (9:09:15 PM): Another chance to clarify their position and harp on the missing weapons.
Dr Momentum (9:09:25 PM): So far the questions are favoring Edwards Dr Momentum (9:09:57 PM): Perhaps the facts have an anti-Bush agenda.
Plastered Dragon (9:10:03 PM): We’ll see
Dr Momentum (9:10:37 PM): Edwards: “Listen carefully to the veep: there is no connection.” Plastered Dragon (9:10:57 PM): ooooh
Plastered Dragon (9:11:08 PM): Cheney’s got a new spin on the Iraq war.
Plastered Dragon (9:11:13 PM): Yet ANOTHER new spin. Dr Momentum (9:11:32 PM): Aha, the global test. Edwards has to be ready for this distortion.
Plastered Dragon (9:11:37 PM): Yeah
Plastered Dragon (9:11:48 PM): Edwards doesn’t look shaken. Dr Momentum (9:12:17 PM): Edwards is going to ask for more time to respond. He’s not going to get it now.
Dr Momentum (9:15:19 PM): Edward brings back the point, we turned our attention away from Afghanistan. He’s using the remaining time to go back to Cheney’s distortion on Iraq/9-11
Dr Momentum (9:16:46 PM): As Josh Marshall said, this isn’t about Edwards and Cheney. They’re sticking to Bush v. Kerry. Dr Momentum (9:17:38 PM): Back to the Global Test with this question.
Dr Momentum (9:17:50 PM): “What is a global test” Edwards is asked.
Plastered Dragon (9:19:23 PM): Edwards brings it to American credibility. Thank you! Dr Momentum (9:19:27 PM): Edwards repeats Kerry’s assertion that no one will be given a veto of the American people. He is stressing the credibility issue, but it isn’t really working. He needs
to make it more clear that the global test isn’t an actual test.
Dr Momentum (9:19:37 PM): I agree, he’s on the right track.
Dr Momentum (9:19:43 PM): But can he drive it home? Dr Momentum (9:21:01 PM): Cheney will never address credibility. It’s not part of his equation. He’s in “computer mode” in the gentle art of verbal self defense. I swear he’s trying to bore the
audience intentionally.
Plastered Dragon (9:21:18 PM): Back to the flip/flop bullshit. Plastered Dragon (9:21:24 PM): I’m so sick of this nonsense.
Dr Momentum (9:21:52 PM): Mike drew my attention to the sly insult “you probably weren’t there to vote for that.”
Plastered Dragon (9:21:58 PM): Inoticed that Dr Momentum (9:22:36 PM): Oh, snap. Cheney is just sayign “you’re plain wrong, and your facts suck.:
Dr Momentum (9:22:59 PM): The mud is flying.
Plastered Dragon (9:23:23 PM): OOOO! Plastered Dragon (9:23:38 PM): Cheney recommended against those weapon systems too!
Dr Momentum (9:23:42 PM): Cheney is launching into an extended attack on John Kerry’s judgment. Starting with that silly vote BS
Dr Momentum (9:23:46 PM): Yeah Plastered Dragon (9:23:53 PM): That’s just sleazy!
Dr Momentum (9:24:34 PM): Cheney is extremely smooth. This is a rattle royal, but the knives are all hidden.
Plastered Dragon (9:25:02 PM): I hope Edwards isn’t constantly on the defensive like this Plastered Dragon (9:25:22 PM): BODY BLOW!!
Dr Momentum (9:25:31 PM): Edwards is smart to try to drag it all into the open. Sneaky attacks are going to work in Cheney’s favor. But you’re right, Cheney has put him on the defensive.
Plastered Dragon (9:26:10 PM): Edwards calls Cheney on his duplicity with regard to wep systems. Dr Momentum (9:26:13 PM): He has to defend Kerry quickly and get back in there and hit Bush hard. Now he drage Halliburton’s no bid contracts in.
Plastered Dragon (9:26:25 PM): Cheney’s not going to answer the charge
Dr Momentum (9:26:29 PM): No Plastered Dragon (9:26:32 PM): He’s repeating himself
Plastered Dragon (9:26:44 PM): Hi I’m Dick Cheney, and I’m a commercial. Again.
Dr Momentum (9:27:32 PM): It seems like these questions are whizzing by. Lots of numbers and details. Dr Momentum (9:27:45 PM): Both of these opponents are able to sling details.
Dr Momentum (9:29:12 PM): So far there is a lot of mud and I don’t see a clear leader. Cheney has successfully kept Edwards catching up. THe average voter is not
Dr Momentum (9:29:20 PM): going to follow most of this. Dr Momentum (9:29:41 PM): Edwards is having to split his answers to answer Cheney’s charges
Dr Momentum (9:30:04 PM): Cheney starts every answer with a slur against Edward’s accuracy
Dr Momentum (9:30:10 PM): An insilt with every answer. Dr Momentum (9:30:16 PM): (insult)
Dr Momentum (9:31:13 PM): Cheney accuses Kerry of not having an Iraq plan and just moves right on. He’s doing this rapid-fire to keep Edwards busy.
Dr Momentum (9:31:54 PM): Good, Edwards is just going to pick one silly assertion (like the size of the coalition) and pick on that. 90% of the cost is Americans. Dr Momentum (9:32:47 PM): Cheney is claiming that Edwards is demeaning Iraqi’s and coalition’s sacrifices. All he’s going to do is put words into Edwards’ mouth. Over and over again.
Plastered Dragon (9:33:03 PM): Yes. A lot of “this is what he said”.
Dr Momentum (9:34:02 PM): Right. Instead of answering he’s just going to restate Edwards questions. A nasty tactic. How will Edwards counter that? Currently he’s taking a good approach. Are
you goingto believe the vice president or your own eyes? Dr Momentum (9:35:10 PM): Again, Edwards is having to play catch up. Edwards is going to have to let some of these charges slide and attack.
Dr Momentum (9:36:23 PM): Al Zarquawi (sp?) did not have a training camp in Saddam-controlled Iraq.
Plastered Dragon (9:36:43 PM): Yeah he was in Kurdish controlled Iraq. Dr Momentum (9:37:26 PM): But Cheney slides right by that and conflates the terrorist with Saddam again. Cheney is throwing these things in at the end of his responses, when they are about to
be given another question. Edwards will have no chance to respond.
Plastered Dragon (9:38:23 PM): Cheney looks very … hunched
Plastered Dragon (9:38:45 PM): Here comes Libya again. Dr Momentum (9:38:46 PM): Mike says he’s happy with Edwards’ ability to respond within his time to Cheney’s last attack. I think Edwards is doing as well as he can against Cheney’s
distortions.
Dr Momentum (9:39:31 PM): Edwards brings up Iran.
Dr Momentum (9:39:44 PM): THe moderator questions are almost superfluous here now. Dr Momentum (9:40:11 PM): Edward shas switched back to Halliburton.
Dr Momentum (9:40:35 PM): Halliburton is linked to Iran and bribing officials in Iran.
Dr Momentum (9:40:58 PM): Cheney is jsut saying the charges are false. Dr Momentum (9:41:06 PM): Brings up factcheck.com
Dr Momentum (9:41:25 PM): (Slashdotted)
Plastered Dragon (9:41:44 PM): Edwards is restating Dr Momentum (9:41:51 PM): Well done
Dr Momentum (9:42:03 PM): Edwards is unshaken. Very well done.
Dr Momentum (9:42:25 PM): Imagine how tough it must be to respond to Cheney’s constant attacks. Cool customer, Edwards. Plastered Dragon (9:42:46 PM): Yes, he’s eloquent and able.
Dr Momentum (9:44:18 PM): Edwards drags in Irrael AND the Saudis.
Dr Momentum (9:44:24 PM): (Israel) Dr Momentum (9:44:44 PM): Cheney is attacking Edwards record directly now.
Plastered Dragon (9:44:45 PM): Cheney isn’t going to let Halliburton go, and he’s going to sling big mud.
Dr Momentum (9:44:50 PM): Right Dr Momentum (9:45:05 PM): Oh, here we go.
Plastered Dragon (9:45:17 PM): Oh Christ
Dr Momentum (9:45:22 PM): Cheney accuses Edwards of never being int he senate, pretty much ever. Plastered Dragon (9:45:30 PM): Saddam “created” the suicide bombers?
Plastered Dragon (9:45:40 PM): Saddam threw financing at them to try to win allies!!!! Dr Momentum (9:46:23 PM): Good - Edwards will attack back rather than answering the silly attack.
Plastered Dragon (9:47:24 PM): Domestic issues…
Plastered Dragon (9:47:36 PM): Questions about Cleveland and the economy Plastered Dragon (9:48:42 PM): Cheney —> get people jobs (how?) —> make America friendly to business (tax policy, litigation costs {i.e. caps}, medical care) —> strong education (no child left behind… the great
unfunded education act.)
Dr Momentum (9:50:09 PM): Edwards highlights Cheney’s wandering answer. Cheney doesn’t want to talk about jobe. Here’s Edwards opening to talk about poverty in Cleveland. Plastered Dragon (9:51:18 PM): Edwards —> 1.6 mil jobs lost in Bush admin, 2.7 mil manufacturing jobs lost —> 4 mil people fell thru poverty line —> FIRST administration in the last 70 years to have that happen —>
outsourcing Bush for, Kerry against
Plastered Dragon (9:51:26 PM): Cheney —> We cut taxes, we rule. Dr Momentum (9:51:31 PM): CHeney is amazing with the numbers.
Dr Momentum (9:52:04 PM): I have to say that anyone leaning towards Bush/Cheney is going to just watch this mesmerized by Cheney.
Dr Momentum (9:52:52 PM): Good rejoinder by Edwards there. He doesn’t think the country can take four more years of this kind of experience. Plastered Dragon (9:52:59 PM): Yes
Dr Momentum (9:53:31 PM): Edwards has got Cheney off his attacks a little bit, or Cheney has lost a little steam.
Dr Momentum (9:53:57 PM): Edwards is now talking about middle class tax cuts vs. the high end tax cuts. Plastered Dragon (9:54:26 PM): INCOMING!
Dr Momentum (9:54:35 PM): Edwards: we’re in too deep a hole, but we can cut the deficit. Fiscal responsibility. Corporate loopholes.
Dr Momentum (9:54:49 PM): Cheney: Kerry’s record is one of taxes, taxes, taxes. Dr Momentum (9:56:24 PM): As Mike and I are discussing, this is just like Meet the Press. Cheney is always on Meet the Press. He’s jst doing the same thing.
Dr Momentum (9:56:34 PM): Our frogs are makign happy sounds at John Edwards.
Plastered Dragon (9:57:02 PM): same sex union ban Dr Momentum (9:58:59 PM): This format is much better for Cheney than Town Meeting. He can sit here and say anything he wants, basically.
Dr Momentum (9:59:13 PM): Oh, Edwards is going to drag in the daughter.
Dr Momentum (9:59:27 PM): Cheney’s gay daughter. Where is this going? Dr Momentum (10:00:04 PM): Nowhere. He switched off it.
Plastered Dragon (10:00:10 PM): I think that was kind of a dirty move by Edwards
Plastered Dragon (10:00:24 PM): He’s just drawing attention to the fact that Cheney has a gay daughter. Plastered Dragon (10:00:37 PM): Trying to make him look bad to the religious right.
Dr Momentum (10:00:44 PM): He slipped it in, but he didn’t go anywhere. Cheney may take him to task over it. Edwards shouldn;t have brouight it up if he didn’t have a point.
Plastered Dragon (10:02:16 PM): WOW Dr Momentum (10:02:25 PM): Yeah
Dr Momentum (10:02:29 PM): Nothing
Plastered Dragon (10:02:34 PM): Cheney doesn’t challenge Edwards at ALL on the constitutional amendment Plastered Dragon (10:02:59 PM): Okay here we go with litigation caps
Dr Momentum (10:03:52 PM): Cheney is going to hammer on fear of losing doctors to lawsuits.
Plastered Dragon (10:04:04 PM): Yes… he’s not going to talk about victims Dr Momentum (10:04:16 PM): It will be interesting to see how Edwards answers this.
Dr Momentum (10:04:36 PM): He’ll probably focus on the victims, and on corporate crime.
Plastered Dragon (10:04:49 PM): Yes Dr Momentum (10:05:01 PM): Yep, there he goes. Big companies.
Dr Momentum (10:06:05 PM): Edwards takes the anecdote route. 5 year old Valerie.
Plastered Dragon (10:06:10 PM): Well done Dr Momentum (10:07:01 PM): Edwards concedes the malpractice cost problem
Dr Momentum (10:07:24 PM): They have a plan to handle frivolous lawsuits, but it’s not a cap.
Plastered Dragon (10:07:30 PM): I like it Dr Momentum (10:07:52 PM): Mike and Maggie and I agree: Boring debate. TMI.
Dr Momentum (10:08:31 PM): It’s the battle of the details and unanswered attacks.
Plastered Dragon (10:08:51 PM): Cheney takes anecdote route now, Edwards waxes lyrical about 5 year old girls injured in pools, and Cheney waxes lyrical the story of a successful company. Plastered Dragon (10:09:51 PM): smack for smack
Dr Momentum (10:10:04 PM): Cheney is insinuating Edwards is a tax dodger.
Plastered Dragon (10:10:10 PM): And vice versa Dr Momentum (10:10:24 PM): Edwards comes back that he paid what the law required, just like other companies.
Plastered Dragon (10:11:03 PM): Subject switches to AIDS.
Dr Momentum (10:11:08 PM): AIDS now. BLack women are 13 times more likely to die. Dr Momentum (10:11:22 PM): Moderator: What is the administration’s plan.
Dr Momentum (10:11:37 PM): Cheney acknowledges the problem.
Plastered Dragon (10:13:43 PM): Edwards is touching on Africa… subject of question was American AIDS. Edwards is recapping VP, but saying it isn’t enough. Plastered Dragon (10:13:53 PM): He’s taking it back to healthcare.
Dr Momentum (10:14:02 PM): Edwards is trying to appeal to moral issue in his AIDS answer, draggin Darfur in.
Dr Momentum (10:14:57 PM): Edwards is answering a question about his qualifications. Dr Momentum (10:15:05 PM): “We will tell the truth”
Plastered Dragon (10:15:10 PM): 1. P/VP must keep them safe 2. P/VP must have good judgement 3. P/VP must be honest.
Plastered Dragon (10:15:39 PM): Edwards —> Edwards/Kerry have all these qualities. Plastered Dragon (10:17:12 PM): Cheney says VP qualities depend on the needs of the President.
Plastered Dragon (10:17:51 PM): Cheney is coming across very earnestly at this time.
Dr Momentum (10:17:56 PM): CHeney is insinuating Edwards has an agenda, his political career. Plastered Dragon (10:18:01 PM): Yes.
Dr Momentum (10:18:32 PM): Good for Edwards. Boosting Kerry.
Dr Momentum (10:18:35 PM): Smart. Dr Momentum (10:20:05 PM): The nominees have been asked to describe their differences.
Dr Momentum (10:20:14 PM): Cheney says there are a lot of similarities.
Plastered Dragon (10:20:20 PM): This would appear to be the get cuddly with the VP’s question. Plastered Dragon (10:20:22 PM): So far
Dr Momentum (10:20:46 PM): They both get their chance. As Mike points out, this is a job interview question.
Dr Momentum (10:21:27 PM): Edwards wandered off on this question. Dr Momentum (10:21:53 PM): “We were attacked by Saddam Hussein”
Dr Momentum (10:22:01 PM): (I mean weren’t)
Dr Momentum (10:22:17 PM): Edwards makes the point, just before mentioning Kerry. Twice. Crap. Dr Momentum (10:22:33 PM): He’ll hear about this one.
Plastered Dragon (10:22:46 PM): JesusI hope he doesnt do it again
Dr Momentum (10:22:57 PM): But I don’t think devotion to the candidate is going to work against him too much. Plastered Dragon (10:23:27 PM): Edwards echoes Kerry’s “be strong but be smart” well done, despite flubs
Dr Momentum (10:23:31 PM): A direct question about Flip Flopping Dr Momentum (10:23:59 PM): Interesting, it’s framed as a question abotu flip flopping for BOTH candidates.
Plastered Dragon (10:24:05 PM): good
Plastered Dragon (10:24:12 PM): they both DO flip/flop Dr Momentum (10:24:19 PM): Not just Kerry. Tide turning on that meme?
Dr Momentum (10:26:33 PM): Edwards just answered with a litany of Bush’s flips. Cheney gets second answer, he’ll be harder on Kerry. Edwards’ rebuttal will be the important part of his answer.
It would ahve been easier on Edwards if he’s been the second response.
Plastered Dragon (10:27:03 PM): Cheney’s deferring to military commanders instead of Bremer’s opinion. Dr Momentum (10:27:42 PM): 1/2 of African Americans are dropping out (Edwards) Wow, really?
Dr Momentum (10:29:16 PM): I’ll be glad when this is over.
Plastered Dragon (10:29:23 PM): It’s pretty dull Dr Momentum (10:29:34 PM): Cheney is acknowledging Bush’s inability to be a uniter.
Plastered Dragon (10:29:36 PM): They both seem to be doing well. Is there a clear winner?
Dr Momentum (10:29:40 PM): No Dr Momentum (10:29:46 PM): Not in my opinion.
Dr Momentum (10:30:16 PM): Edwards seemed a little tripped up wit that “Kerry” thing. Plastered Dragon (10:30:41 PM): Hardly seems like that matters much, but SNL would capitalize on it in a skit.
Dr Momentum (10:30:55 PM): But it was battling stories. CHeney’s answer now is typical of the debate. It seems a lot of words and little meat.
Dr Momentum (10:31:38 PM): Edwards will attack the “uniter not a divider” — good, it’s not an accident, he says. Now he wants to switch to health care. Dr Momentum (10:32:04 PM): This is probably something he knew he wanted to leave in the viewer’s minds.
Plastered Dragon (10:33:46 PM): This is a powerful response from Edwards.
Dr Momentum (10:33:53 PM): Edwards gets one last chance to hammer it. “They’re with the companies. We’re with the people” Dr Momentum (10:34:28 PM): Closing statements, Edwards first.
Dr Momentum (10:35:31 PM): He’s appealing directly to what we see. “You see it, they don’t” Again, believe your eyes, not the administration. Dr Momentum (10:35:38 PM): It could be a strong message.
Dr Momentum (10:35:56 PM):
Posted by James at October 5, 2004 11:06 PM
Overall I was neither thrilled nor disgusted... but I think Edwards did better with his closing statement. Cheney went for fear and abstractions, yet again. Kind of a weak and negative way to wind things up, IMO.
